[E87] Wie restriktiv ist der saug beim 120d?

Dieses Thema im Forum "BMW 120d" wurde erstellt von beckerplast, 04.05.2014.

  1. #1 beckerplast, 04.05.2014
    beckerplast

    beckerplast 1er-Fahrer(in)

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    12.09.2012
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    Hallo Leute, weisst jemand, wie restriktiv ist die Einlasseite unseres 120d? Möchte das Turbo wechseln (für einen 3.0d) und jetzt weiss ich nicht ob das serial Einlass mit Airbox und luftfilter.
    Natürlich verbaue ich einen gröseren LLK auch.

    danke!
    Becker
     
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  3. #2 beckerplast, 05.05.2014
    beckerplast

    beckerplast 1er-Fahrer(in)

    Dabei seit:
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    niemand?
     
  4. Limp

    Limp 1er-Fahrer(in)

    Dabei seit:
    01.06.2011
    Beiträge:
    211
    Zustimmungen:
    0
    Ort:
    Oldenburg
    Fahrzeugtyp:
    120d (FL)
    Motorisierung:
    120d
    Modell:
    Hatch (E87)
    Sorry, aber wenn du deinen ersten Post verständlich formuliert hättest, dann würde sich sicher auch jemand finden der deine Frage beantworten kann.
    Ich möchte dich nicht persönlich angreiffen, aber das kann nun wirklich Keiner verstehen.
     
  5. #4 alpinweisser_120d, 06.05.2014
    alpinweisser_120d

    alpinweisser_120d 1er-Süchtling

    Dabei seit:
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    Fahrzeugtyp:
    120d Coupé
    Motorisierung:
    1er M
    +1
     
  6. #5 kamil_ne, 06.05.2014
    kamil_ne

    kamil_ne 1er-Fahrer(in)

    Dabei seit:
    26.02.2012
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    187
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    2
    Ort:
    Oberhausen
    Fahrzeugtyp:
    120d (FL)
    Motorisierung:
    120d
    Modell:
    Hatch (E87)
    Baujahr:
    10/2008
    Vorname:
    Kamil
    Ich glaube er möchte den Turbolader eines 3 Liter Dieselmotors auf den 120d packen und hat die Befürchtung, dass der Turbolader zu wenig Luft durch die Airbox erhält.
    Da ich von der Technik keine Ahnung hab kann ich die Frage (sofern ich sie richtig interpretiert habe) nicht beantworten.
     
  7. #6 beckerplast, 06.05.2014
    beckerplast

    beckerplast 1er-Fahrer(in)

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    okay, I think it's better if I write in english, german is not my mother tongue and I see most of you did't understand me.
    SO, my question is essentially what kamil_ne said - i am upgrading my 120d turbo to a gt2260 turbo, from 3.0d and my question was, if the piping of the intake part would not be too narrow or too small to let the bigger 3.0d turbo breathe properly.
    I'm changing the complete exhaust to 3" and the question remains if the intake part needs some modifying too or is it engineered good in stock form.

    Thanks for your answers,
    Igor
     
  8. Limp

    Limp 1er-Fahrer(in)

    Dabei seit:
    01.06.2011
    Beiträge:
    211
    Zustimmungen:
    0
    Ort:
    Oldenburg
    Fahrzeugtyp:
    120d (FL)
    Motorisierung:
    120d
    Modell:
    Hatch (E87)
    Hey Igor..
    Like I said, my first post was not to offend you. If you don't let us know any informations about your person where should i know from that you don't talk german very good.

    I'm sorry that i can't answer your question properly.
     
  9. #8 nelson, 07.05.2014
    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 07.05.2014
    nelson

    nelson 1er-Liebhaber(in)

    Dabei seit:
    02.04.2010
    Beiträge:
    1.679
    Zustimmungen:
    0
    Ort:
    irgendwo zwischen Aachen und Mönchengladbach
    Fahrzeugtyp:
    120d
    Modell:
    Hatch (E87)
    gabs schonmal, das Thema.. aber kam nichts bei raus, was dir weiter helfen könnte. :D

    This topic has already been discussed. No results were found that would help you.

    Klick
     
  10. #9 beckerplast, 07.05.2014
    beckerplast

    beckerplast 1er-Fahrer(in)

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    yes I've read also this tema, I also tried to ge into contact with Boarderboy. the question about restrictiveness of stock intake was not debated.

    Thanks for all the info,
    Igor
     
  11. #10 Bull, 07.05.2014
    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 08.05.2014
    Bull

    Bull 1er-Liebhaber(in)

    Dabei seit:
    06.05.2008
    Beiträge:
    1.746
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    Ort:
    Gelsenkirchen, dem Pott dat Herz
    Fahrzeugtyp:
    120d
    Modell:
    Hatch (E87)
    Vorname:
    Cedi
    After reading another Thread about removing the 120d's DPF, I remembered this one and a question comes to my mind;
    Why do you want to swap your Turbocharger for the 3.0d one?
    Is your 120d so hard tuned, that there is no other possibility to get more Whp than swapping to a bigger Charger?
    Or is it just a question of feasibility?

    And, to be at least one that may give you at least a theoretical thought to partially answer your question, I think that in consequence of principle, the Dieselengines intake is designed to get much more air into the motor than needed for a proper work. Maybe you can swap the airfilterhousing to the 3.0ds, too and add a better filter, just to be sure, but thats it.
    The point is: if you take a greater charger in combination with a greater Intercooler, you will get way more torgue but you will expand the delay that you have until this torque kicks in, too.
    I dont think that you need another than the, maybe modded, stock intake for this project, but I dont think that way more Turbopressure is a good idea for the 2.0 motor either.
    Espacially because there are ways to build a good working 230-240 whp car with about 500-550nm of torque without swapping the serial charger.
     
  12. #11 beckerplast, 08.05.2014
    beckerplast

    beckerplast 1er-Fahrer(in)

    Dabei seit:
    12.09.2012
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    that's a great post. You actually confirmed my thoughts about intake, diesels are designed to have an abundance of air, as they dont have a throttle body. And your idea to put in the 3.0d standard intake is fantastic, thank you!!

    About the turbo lag...you are probably right here too. The lag will be greater, i don't know how big, but it sure will be noticable. I have now almost full boost at 2000 rpm, ant this will shift to 2500-2800 for sure. This was also one of the biggest drawbacks regarding turbo upgrading. But having a 280hp in my 2.0 diesel is too tempting.
    My 120d has chip tune and produces 200hp, 430 Nm torque, which is decent but as you know it's never enough.
    With DPF delete, decat, exhaust i could reach maybe 230 hp, but it wouldn't be safe for the turbo as it would be spinning near its maximum.
    THe 3.0d turbo will be harder to spool, but will be also at 280 hp well inside its working rpm, and remember this is a VNT turbo. Also the thermal stress on the engine will be lower with bigger injectors.
    It is too tempting :)
    If I anyway couldn't live with this much turbo lag, I will switch the compressor wheel for a smaller if that would be possible.

    What do you think? I'd like to hear your comment.
    Igor
     
  13. #12 beckerplast, 10.05.2014
    beckerplast

    beckerplast 1er-Fahrer(in)

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    Well, I am still hesitating to put on a larger turbo.
    What do you think, from your personal point of view - if i do a IC upgrade, injectors, DPF delete, decat, and 3" (or the one from 123d) exhaust, what HP could I look for in my FL 2007 120d ?

    I'm afraid I couldn't live with the lag, or would I?

    There's a graph from a team from netherlands that races their 120d with a bigger turbo, injectors and IC....etc.
    The torque curve starts at 1800 and the full boost is at 2400rpm, what do you think, is that driveable or not for a daily driver and occasional trackdays?
     
  14. Patz

    Patz 1er-Fahrer(in)

    Dabei seit:
    12.01.2013
    Beiträge:
    150
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    0
    Motorisierung:
    120d
    Modell:
    Hatch (E87)
    On Youtube you can watch several vids from a guy called "AlfaJTD".

    He has a massively modified 120d. (GTB2260VK turbo, stainless manifold, down pipe, full 60mm exhaust...)
    The engine generates 280 hp, but compared to the Stage 2 120d FL he isn't really faster.
    The performance increase from the upgrade to 280 hp is far less than expected.

    I was not impressed by the performance of the car, especially because he was pushing hard and the result was poor in my opinion.
     
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  16. #14 Bull, 12.05.2014
    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 12.05.2014
    Bull

    Bull 1er-Liebhaber(in)

    Dabei seit:
    06.05.2008
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    1.746
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    0
    Ort:
    Gelsenkirchen, dem Pott dat Herz
    Fahrzeugtyp:
    120d
    Modell:
    Hatch (E87)
    Vorname:
    Cedi
    Whoa...
    Should have looked here earlier...

    I have to say sorry. I didnt explain well what I meant by saying 'lag'.
    The right phrase would have been throttle response.
    Look, if you swap to a bigger turbo you have to move way more mass with the same amount of exhaust gas before producing more intake pressure (which you are maybe even forced to limit to not blow your whole engine). The much greater intercooler you should use for that turbo makes it even worse.

    As a everyday bitch and sometimes trackday whore it is not interesting where in the rev gauge your max power and torque is, you can easily adapt your driving to that fixed spots to avoid turboleaks on track and overpowering wheels on open roads. But it is a really shitty feeling if you slam the pedal and it happens?
    Nothing......
    And then, suddenly, after a loooong moment of moving parts and building pressure, the whole power kicks in at once, if you need it or not.

    So, in my line of sight, you have now several options, which depends highly on what you really want and what you are willing to pay for it. Here are some:

    -Say okay, I love that crank turbokick and upgrade the turbo (as the main part)

    -Upgrade your serial turbo with lighter, harder wheel and keep the housing (+ injectors, dekat, etc), round it up with a ecu remapping.
    -> maybe not the strongest 120d, but the most driveable with the best price-power-ratio.

    -First swap the turbo and then upgrade it further as said in point 2.
    -> Heavy power, massive amount of money for a car you dont know how long it lives...

    -Swap the whole powertrain to the 30d's like Gregor (Oktavius) did and maybe later optimize that.
    -> For crank Dieselcracks THE option! :daumen: Megasleeper that declasses 100k+€ cars on the straight.

    -Leave the car as a mileeater, beloved everyday Misses, comfort carrier and get a additional racecar.
    -> Thats what I did after recognizing that my E92 M3 QP has to be everything a bit and nothing really. That is the option I took and will allways take in the future. In daily rides way to much potential to smoke your driving license on every corner and at the track still 1.65 tons to brake...

    Maybe think about building a cool sleeper which is barely street legal and drive it the days you want, ride it on trackdays & touristrounds, smoke 19 year old Justin Biber Hairguys in Opel/Vauxhall GT's (I did yesterday, that death-scared face the moment I overtook him with a housebig tiresmoke wall from my rear axle was sooooo fuc*in funny :lach_flash:), enjoy the pure racecarfeeling on open roads and sometimes escalate a little an make your own drift sessions on open roads when you drive home from sports at midnight and you think nobody is lookin. ;)
    In that case you dont have to think about things like:
    Are raceseats really comfortable for everyday?
    Do I need 4 seats or can I really say no for backseat passengers?
    Can I really get more boost or do I break the engine and have to walk to work for 3 months?
    And so on...

    Makes live easier. I personally think every man who is able to drive a car fast and save should have a daily ride and a race car. :mrgreen:
     
  17. #15 beckerplast, 14.05.2014
    beckerplast

    beckerplast 1er-Fahrer(in)

    Dabei seit:
    12.09.2012
    Beiträge:
    79
    Zustimmungen:
    1
    hey Bull, thanks so much for your input - it is always good to hear an opinion from someone who knows their stuff. I have to tell you that all your comments are spot on - greater IC and turbo create greater lag and the drivability sucks. If I learn to shift differently and use different rpm range, MAYBE I could get away with it and wouln't be bothered by a laggy car.
    But! I think a lot it down to tuning. And remember, the GTB2260 is a VNT turbo so it's not just a big bolt on thing you put on and wait ages for it to spin.

    Here is a graph from the tuners and 120d racer I mentioned I am in contact with. I am making a completely identical setup and they will provide me with the remap.

    Please comment this dyno chart, can you? Thanks!

    i think the boost comes quite soon? if one can tell that from a single dyno chart at all....

    [​IMG]
     
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Wie restriktiv ist der saug beim 120d?

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